Jeremy Strong, left, and Sebastian Stan. The film, Strong said, “has the potential to illuminate something about the inner workings of this man.”
Credit...Geordie Wood for The New York Times

Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong Say Their Trump Movie Is a Tragedy, Not a Mockery

by · NY Times

It’s natural to feel nervous before presenting your movie at a major film festival. But in late August, when the director Ali Abbasi boarded a flight to the Telluride Film Festival, he wasn’t even sure if his new movie “The Apprentice” — a fictionalized look at the Machiavellian bond between the young Donald J. Trump (Sebastian Stan) and the lawyer and fixer Roy Cohn (Jeremy Strong) — would be permitted to play there at all.

“It was really crazy what happened, and I spared Jeremy and Sebastian some of it, but it is a demoralizing feeling,” Abbasi admitted during a recent video call with his two stars. The former president had been threatening legal action against “The Apprentice” since its May debut at the Cannes Film Festival, which chilled distributor interest in the movie for months and made it a controversial prospect for any subsequent festival willing to show it.

“If a movie comes out and people think it’s bad or it’s flawed, you can deal with that,” Abbasi said. “But when it goes into a safe box indefinitely, that was heavy.”

In the end, Trump failed to follow through on his threats, Telluride played the movie without incident and “The Apprentice” ultimately found a distributor in Briarcliff Entertainment, which will release the film on Friday. Still, Strong was perturbed by how many major studios were unwilling to take on the film and potentially incur the presidential candidate’s wrath.

“You think that things could be banned in North Korea or Russia or certain places, but you don’t think that will ever happen here,” Strong said. “It’s a real dark harbinger that it even nearly happened.”

Written by Gabriel Sherman, “The Apprentice” begins with Trump in his 20s as he toils under his real-estate magnate father and aspires to become a momentous figure in his own right. Still, Trump’s ambition exceeds his ability until he meets the savvy Cohn, who takes the young man under his wing and imparts ruthless rules for success that will eventually launch Trump onto the highest stage imaginable.

“The Apprentice” could be an awards-season player for Stan, best known as the Marvel super-soldier Bucky Barnes, and for Strong, the Emmy-winning “Succession” actor who recently took home a Tony for “An Enemy of the People.” But will the politically charged fervor around the movie help or hurt their bids?

“Here’s the crazy thing: I don’t think this movie is controversial,” Abbasi said. “It’s retelling information that is freely and readily available everywhere, and it’s fact-checked and triple-checked. So my big question is, what is the problem?”

Here are edited excerpts from our conversation.

Strong as Roy Cohn and Stan as Donald J. Trump in “The Apprentice.”
Credit...Pief Weyman/Briarcliff Entertainment & Rich Spirit

At the beginning of the film, Sebastian, you play Trump as much more soft-spoken and abashed than we’re used to seeing him.

SEBASTIAN STAN Go rewatch Netflix’s [docuseries] “An American Dream,” look at all the early footage of him standing in front of a committee with a giant yellow ’70s tie and trying to find the right words to express himself. Watch him in the courtroom when he’s with Roy waiting to get the tax abatement: You’re seeing a starry-eyed kid who’s doing his best to keep his chin up and feign confidence. We need to stop talking about him like he’s a being from outer space. He’s been made on this planet like the rest of us.

ALI ABBASI There is a version of this you can read as the becoming of a monster. There’s also another version, which is this human tragedy: Were there other possibilities for these people if their whole world was not reduced to winning and taking?

JEREMY STRONG I 100 percent see it as a human tragedy, the way that I saw “Succession” as a tragedy of late-stage capitalism. With that show, we were at a party at Adam McKay’s house [he was a producer on “Succession”] the night of the election in 2016, and we had our first table read [the next] morning. Then Trump was elected, and that changed the whole container of the show and the way it spoke to the country. There’s an idea I think about a lot that applies to both of those things, something that Jung said: “Where love is absent, power fills the vacuum.”

What’s exciting about this movie is that it touches the third rail of all of these things, which not a lot of work frankly does these days. The world is on fire, and it feels like a lot of our business veers more and more toward laundry-folding content and things that are relatively safe.

Some people, sight unseen, have accused the film of “humanizing” Trump. What’s your response to that?

STRONG It’s a humanistic interrogation and investigation of these people. Ali is not making “The Great Dictator” — it’s not a farce, it’s not a cartoon. We’re trying to hold a mirror up to this world and these individuals and try to understand how we got here.

ABBASI I think it’s a dangerous thing to start thinking, “Oh, you humanize someone too much.” Why would that ever be a problem?

With independent films, there’s always a risk that the work will never be widely seen. This is an unusual case where a high-profile indie was in danger of never being seen at all.

ABBASI During the summer when people were saying there’s a chance this is not going to be shown, I was angry. I thought, “Oh, they’re going to rip me off, they’re going to sell it and not give me money.” I could not believe it, honestly, and I kept asking different people, “How is this possible?” I come from Iran and I’m used to dictators and authoritarian governments, but I always thought whatever fault there is with American society, freedom of speech is not one of the problems.

STRONG We live in such a binary time. There’s such black-and-white thinking and a real failure to contain complexities or dualities, and I think that’s part of what has gotten us into trouble societally.

Though the movie is coming out just weeks before the presidential election, it’s been in development for years.

ABBASI We tried to make the movie many times and it fell through. I remember the time after Jan. 6, it was like looking at a stock market crash the day after: Everyone was like, “No thank you, no thank you.” Finally, when Jeremy came on board, you could actually start to see the movie in its whole.

STRONG At no point was the intention to release this in the middle of an election. This wasn’t purpose-built for that. There was never a plan to make this a political act or a hand grenade to be dropped in the middle of the election. It is, I think, incredibly fortuitous timing that it can come out at a moment where it has the potential to illuminate something about the inner workings of this man, but it stands alone as a film.

Sebastian, what did your friends and family say when you told them you were playing Trump?

STAN Pretty sure my mom said, “At least you get to shave.” But I asked a lot of people about it, actually. A C.E.O. of a studio told me not to do it because I was going to alienate half the country, and a casting director who I respect very much said, “We don’t need another Trump movie, you’re never going to get any applause for it.” And then there were other people saying, “Are you going to be worried about your safety?” But for some reason every time somebody said, “Don’t do it,” it made me want to do it more.

Cohn takes on Trump as his protégé, but the movie hints that there’s a sexual undercurrent to the older man’s interest, too.

ABBASI If you look at who was Roy’s type, it was young, tall, blond guys. I mean, Donald Trump was basically his type. Now, does it mean that was the reason they met and developed a relationship? Not solely, not necessarily. Jeremy’s going to shoot me down now, but it felt like he was someone who was turned on by the idea of impossible love a little bit, and Donald, in a way, was an impossible love.

STRONG I don’t disagree with Ali on that, although I was interested in exploring what I felt was a rather chaste, platonic form of love that exists between men, which is friendship. But what did he see in him? Roy cultivated influence. It allowed him to feel elevated above the crowd, and he saw something in Donald that mirrored himself. There’s also that idea that when a student is ready, a teacher appears. They just happen to meet in this moment in time where he [Cohn] could sort of be Iago and blow poison into his ear.

Ali, when the film debuted at Cannes and Trump threatened to file a lawsuit, you said, “Everybody talks about him suing a lot of people. They don’t talk about his success rate, though.” You appeared unbothered, but how did you really feel?

ABBASI I learned a lesson when I did “Holy Spider,” my last movie. I knew that it was going to be controversial and sit badly with the Iranian government, then a teaser came out and the speaker of the Parliament said he thinks it is blasphemy. You realize that you are dealing with forces that are so much bigger than you as a human being or as an artist, but what can I do? Am I going to take the next flight, go and talk to the speaker of the Parliament and say, “No, I’m not blasphemous”?

In that way, we are sort of riding on the back of the dragon whether we like it or not. The other part is, I think a lot of what is happening right now is a knee-jerk reaction of people who have not watched the movie yet. For me, this conversation becomes real when the movie comes out, when people actually have seen it, when Mr. Trump has seen it. I would be super interested to know what he thinks either way. He might learn something. I’m not saying it in a condescending way, but he might.

Though the timing of this release is fraught, what are the good things about it coming out so close to the election?

ABBASI For me, this would be as relevant in December or next January as it is now. In that way, I don’t think we need the election to make us relevant, but am I not excited about us being in an interaction with the back of the dragon? I would lie to you if I wasn’t.

STRONG It’s mandatory viewing for any sentient beings right now who care about what’s happening in this country, and I think it offers vital insight, which could move the needle in a real way. In this moment where we’re surrounded by rhetoric of hate and divisiveness, I think art has a place and film has a place.

STAN I worry that people are desperate for answers and for guidance. They want to be told how to feel, they want to be told what’s right and what’s wrong. This whole discomfort with the film only reflects why it’s important: It isn’t just what you’re learning about Trump, it’s also what you’re learning about yourself from Trump.

I worry that we’re not going deeper anymore with how we approach things. We’re just reading Wikipedia pages. If that’s what you’re going to do, then you’ll just float among the rest of the ghosts of Christmas past. But the rest of us, at least, are going to try and get to the bottom of some things.

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